Scope Evaluation passed models?

[Tl15]

Not sure I understand the gospel statement. Using that term infers dishonesty, which I don’t see. I see a field test that tries to minimize sources of error and subjectivity. Any additional context is created by the reader. The results help me interpret some of the scope failures I’ve seen and experienced. I don’t see a cabal of conspiracy in this. I don’t even think the companies are making bad products on purpose. I don’t think they know any better. But like most people who are presented with evidence that is contrary to their beliefs, the first response is denial and defensiveness. Some will stop at that point, while others will use that evidence to evaluate their beliefs and adapt.

And no offense, but like I said we differ on the importance of high-quality glass in scopes. I see the glass as an aesthetic feature that is not required with respect to hunting. The issue is that it’s become the primary feature for many manufacturers, and the mechanical performance has suffered.

I’m not sure what dictionary you've read, or school you went to, but the word gospel has no inference or implication of dishonesty. In this context, you would use the definition, “a thing that is absolutely true”. When I say there is a problematic lack of context to the gospel, it means some here are so confined to the black and white results of an unrealistic internet test that they are unwilling to reflect on whether it even applies to THEM. If the reader’s rifle will never see any of those conditions that caused ONE sample to fail, as most won’t, the results are academic and don’t apply in their context. From an experimental design perspective, the field tests have massive issues, which Form himself acknowledges at times. Some people will read that as a dig, but it’s not. It’s a factual statement some of us nerds will understand. The existence of so much contrary evidence to some of the results draws even more question to their validity across the product as a whole. But, that’s the nature of the beast. I still used his results to drive a buying decision on a Credo HX. I wouldn’t have bought an optically mediocre scope if I didn’t see value in his work.

If you believe optical and mechanical engineers “don’t know any better”, and are designing poor performance because of ignorance, I would encourage you to never get in another automobile. They design equipment with a low failure threshold because a finance team gave them a max unit production cost, and marketing gave them a minimum feature list that is unattainable within that budget. I’m a project accountant, that is LITERALLY my job. Your last sentence makes your position even more confusing because you state that manufactures are designing specifically for optical performance and not for mechanical performance. How could they make that design decision if they didn’t know any better?

Not sure what denial tangent is about?

You see glass as an aesthetic feature. Again, I’m not sure of your definition of that word, but I described it as exactly that. We’re not differing on anything? I literally said, “it’s never been a question of will this scope get me to legal”. It’s about the experience. If I’ve got multiple optics that would be reliable in my use case, I’m buying the one that lets me hunt in 4K UHD.

I know some of this post will likely read offensive or as taking shots, but it’s in no way intended to. I’m just trying to understand and clarify the positions.

 

[Marshfly]

I don't know why you guys are "debating" glass quality vs mechanical performance. You CAN have both at an acceptable price.

Here is the drop test/review of the Leupold VX-3HD. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/leupold-vx-3hd-3-5-10x40mm-cds-zl-field-evaluation.314762/

It failed after riding in the seat of the truck.

I had a friend, this year, that owned the 4.5-14x50 (I think) version of this scope. Brand new hunter. An old timer had recommended this scope to him. I zeroed it for him but remarked that while it would probably be fine this year, he really needed to sell it and purchase something that wouldn't shit the bed for the way we backpack hunt here.

Image quality was absolute trash in my opinion. Zeroing the turrets was ridiculous since you needed some tool to do it or risk tearing up your fingers trying.

While there I was zeroing my son's Tikka with the Trijicon Credo 2.5-15. These two scopes are within spitting distance of each other on price.
This guy handled and looked through/shot the Tikka/Credo setup and his jaw literally dropped. Could not believe how crisp the image was and just how the scope oozed quality compared to his Leupold. Within two days his Leupold was for sale on Craigslist and he had a Credo on the way from EuroOptic.

Incidentally, a week later he had dumped the CVA rifle(the old timer recommended that also) and bought a Tikka and had UM rings on the way as well. LOL.

I talked him into 6.5CM for the new gun rather than 308. He shoots once a week now. Just absolutely loves the setup, how it shoots, how he can spot shots, everything. There is no reason to settle today.

 

[Tl15]

I don't know why you guys are "debating" glass quality vs mechanical performance. You CAN have both at an acceptable price.

Here is the drop test/review of the Leupold VX-3HD. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/leupold-vx-3hd-3-5-10x40mm-cds-zl-field-evaluation.314762/

It failed after riding in the seat of the truck.

I had a friend, this year, that owned the 4.5-14x50 (I think) version of this scope. Brand new hunter. An old timer had recommended this scope to him. I zeroed it for him but remarked that while it would probably be fine this year, he really needed to sell it and purchase something that wouldn't shit the bed for the way we backpack hunt here.

Image quality was absolute trash in my opinion. Zeroing the turrets was ridiculous since you needed some tool to do it or risk tearing up your fingers trying.

While there I was zeroing my son's Tikka with the Trijicon Credo 2.5-15. These two scopes are within spitting distance of each other on price.
This guy handled and looked through/shot the Tikka/Credo setup and his jaw literally dropped. Could not believe how crisp the image was and just how the scope oozed quality compared to his Leupold. Within two days his Leupold was for sale on Craigslist and he had a Credo on the way from EuroOptic.

Incidentally, a week later he had dumped the CVA rifle(the old timer recommended that also) and bought a Tikka and had UM rings on the way as well. LOL.

I talked him into 6.5CM for the new gun rather than 308. He shoots once a week now. Just absolutely loves the setup, how it shoots, how he can spot shots, everything. There is no reason to settle today.

Besting a VX3HD isn’t saying much from an optical performance perspective…

 

[Marshfly]

Besting a VX3HD isn’t saying much from an optical performance perspective…

I agree. It's trash. I just expected more.

But have you looked through a Trijicon Credo or Tenmile?
They are excellent.
I own Swaro Els and a Kowa 77. It's not like I don't have amazing glass to compare to.

 

[fwafwow]

For those who have scopes that have never failed or required adjustments to zero, would you consider sending in one of those scopes for testing - after hunting season?

 

[Marshfly]

For those who have scopes that have never failed or required adjustments to zero, would you consider sending in one of those scopes for testing - after hunting season?

Someone on the Ultralight Ultralight rifle thread just sent this in. There you go.

Leupold VX-3HD 2.5-8x36mm CDS-ZL Field Evaluation

This is a field evaluation of a Leupold VX-3HD 2.5-8x36mm CDS-ZL scope. This scope was sent to Ryan Avery for an evaluation. The ammunition used was 175gr SMK from Winchester that was personally purchased. The 20 round proof group was just over 1.3 MOA. The scope and weight- Turrets...

rokslide.com

 

[Marshfly]

Post 129

Ultralight Ultralight Rifles

Wildcat, It's very much possible to build a straight-pull folder. Below is my bolt-action 6mm ARC. Parts used were: --16" BSF barrel without gas port --Slick side aluminum upper --Wiland USA PCC handguard --Kaiser-US polymer lower --Folding AGP Arms stock --Aero mount w/ Weaver 4x28 Classic...

rokslide.com

 

[Marbles]

I’m not sure what dictionary you've read, or school you went to, but the word gospel has no inference or implication of dishonesty. In this context, you would use the definition, “a thing that is absolutely true”.

There is a thing called context and understanding a languages idioms. Seeing as you referenced dictionaries, I've included a screen shot from Webster's.

Lastly, I don't think anyone here has belittled anyone else, and the real testing is spearheaded by Form and that work is held as gospel. But, when it isn't put into context, it's gospel to a fault if you ask me.

So, you believe something can be absolutely true to a fault?

 

[Tl15]

I agree. It's trash. I just expected more.

But have you looked through a Trijicon Credo or Tenmile?
They are excellent.
I own Swaro Els and a Kowa 77. It's not like I don't have amazing glass to compare to.

Yes, I have a Credo HX 2.5-15x42 on an AR-10. To my eyes, it sits squarely in between the VX3 and VX5 lines. I like to use those benchmarks because just about anyone can go down to the local store and see both to get a feel for what to expect. To my eyes, my Leica Amplus is the most pleasing to look through of my higher end scopes, but I still haven't gotten a Swaro Z6 in the stable, so I can't be satisfied yet.
To be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Credo. I will likely never sell it. It just won't ever be used as a benchmark if that makes sense?

 

[Tl15]

There is a thing called context and understanding a languages idioms. Seeing as you referenced dictionaries, I've included a screen shot from Webster's.

So, you believe something can be absolutely true to a fault?

View attachment 623747

You're attempting a straw man argument. I clearly defined the context in my post and this is not it. Please limit to the actual discussion at hand so we can attempt to stay productive.

 

[JGRaider]

For those who have scopes that have never failed or required adjustments to zero, would you consider sending in one of those scopes for testing - after hunting season?

I've sold off a bunch of rifles I didn't use over the last few years and kept those I use alot. Since the season never closes here, I'll keep "testing" them by actually using them.

 

[Marbles]

You're attempting a straw man argument. I clearly defined the context in my post and this is not it. Please limit to the actual discussion at hand so we can attempt to stay productive.

No, you insulted someone, implying they where not educated, your context is clearly not in the standard use of language, making your "clarification" a pointless cop out.

Don't insult people, and I would be inclined to cut you same slack.

You where first to get away from the actual discussion, if you want it limited, limit yourself.

 

[Tl15]

No, you insulted someone, implying they where not educated, your context is clearly not in the standard use of language, making your "clarification" a pointless cop out.

Don't insult people, and I would be inclined to cut you same slack.

You where first to get away from the actual discussion, if you want it limited, limit yourself.

I've got to step out of this thread at this point. I think its gotten too heated for too many to go anywhere at this point. I didn't intend to offend, but clearly I have. Apologies.

 

[fwafwow]

Someone on the Ultralight Ultralight rifle thread just sent this in. There you go.

Thanks. I’m hoping for some of the other brands that folks say don’t fail will get sent in at some point. It will be better to identify more brands and models that work.

 

[ElPollo]

I've got to step out of this thread at this point. I think it’s gotten too heated for too many to go anywhere at this point. I didn't intend to offend, but clearly I have. Apologies.

I am with Marbles on the use of gospel, but am not offended. Honestly, I couldn’t follow your arguments and determine if you were for or against testing. Maybe that’s just electronic communication. Either way, I didn't feel insulted, and no need for apologies to me.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I get this thread. Trust me when I found the slide and started to dig, I found things I liked… and things I really wanted to not like. When I jumped into rifle hunting as a young single army dude. I went all in on leupold, heck my sniper section ran mark4s… must be the best ever!!! So years later and half a dozen vx3 and vx5’s I finally got answers for my “floating” zero questions… why was my scope off from 1 hunt and sitting in a safe?

I get the how do you “use” them? For me I was born and raised in Co, my buddies and I are idiots and hard headed as hell, we were going deep before it was all the rage, mostly because we didn’t know what to do at first so we just went deep and went off trail. We babied the hell out of our firearms, just like we would on patrol, you can do that all you want but slips happen, deadfall happens, scree fields happen… I guess if you just drive a nice crushed gravel road to a blind then yes 99% of your stuff will be “fine” I don’t and I don’t want the digger I take on a snowy north slope to tank my stuff…. So I did my research and bought stuff that will keep my desired POA/POI much more reliably… obviously nothing is 100% but I’ll go after the 95-98% vs 50%…

 

[ORJoe]

For those who have scopes that have never failed or required adjustments to zero, would you consider sending in one of those scopes for testing - after hunting season?

They don't even need to send them anywhere. The reason the test is a series of drops onto a soft pad is that it is repeatable from scope to scope and repeatable by anybody.
Taking a trip with the rifle mounted to an ATV between groups would be great because it represents what people know that they do, but then the claims of "Your ATV has worse suspension"-"You took the scope you wanted to lose on a rougher trail"-"You did the scope you wanted to win last so you'd run out of gas and not go as far"
So anybody can fire a ten shot group, drop the rifle on a feather mattress or whatever, and fire one shot to see what it does. Decide for yourself if the result is acceptable.

 

[Mike D Texas]

For those who have scopes that have never failed or required adjustments to zero, would you consider sending in one of those scopes for testing - after hunting season?

In my case, what would it prove and what would be my gain? You can’t buy that scope anymore so what would be the point? To gain RS points?


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[amassi]

In my case, what would it prove and what would be my gain? You can’t buy that scope anymore so what would be the point? To gain RS points?


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No one’s advocating dropping your heirlooms
I think the folks consistently recommending 2 major brands that have no fault warranties have nothing to lose, but chose not to send one in or simply test theirs.


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[JGRaider]

I "test" mine every time I go into the field in one way or another. I sure don't need to take it off and send it to some stranger to get internet approval. That's a ridiculous think to ask IMO.