Vaccine?

[Mighty Mouse]

SCOTUS says otherwise.

Beware the authority to which you appeal. SCOTUS also ruled in favor of forced sterilization, with reference to its earlier ruling on forced vaccination as supporting precedent:

It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes. (Buck v. Bell, 1927)​

​

SCOTUS may have the power to decide legality, but legality and morality are not synonymous. Much evil has been done in pursuit of the "common good." Just food for thought.

 

[AKDoc]

We human beings are such a diverse species! It's true that we all walk up-right, we all don't drag our knuckles when we walk, and we all have opposing thumbs...but that's about where our commonalities stop LOL!

Over 20,000 genes in the human gnome (and still counting), and over half of those genes have to do with the brain...yup, it's a diverse topography across us for sure...and thank goodness we are not all of the same mind in all things. That would be an even more troubling world.

I'm hoping everyone makes an informed personal health decision about the vaccine in collaboration with their trusted primary healthcare provider...and if you don't have one that you trust, then find one....they're out there.

 

[Newtosavage]

You literally said that the only people you knew who didn't get a check were ones who didn't file their taxes then you put a so and some question marks. That seemed to me that you were implying I didn't get one because I didn't file my taxes. Kids going to public schools without vaccinations happens all the time, same as nurses and healthcare workers that opt of their "mandatory" flu shots for religious purposes. Some people think the government has more control over their lives then they actually do.

Right. I try to speak from personal experience. The only people I KNEW who didn't get their check, had not filled out their tax returns fully or correctly. Simple as that. Any inference was your own.

Sure, kids go to school without shots, but they are required to have them, again, as far as I know.

 

[Marbles]

1955 Cutter Labratories took Jon Salk polio formula and rushed it into production got it wrong and killed 10 kids and permanently paralyzing another 164...all 70k kids vaccinated had bad side effects. Sure the polio vaccine is safe now....but it wasn't at 1st. This event led to the current regulatory enviroment for vaccine approval...the one that has been "fast tracked" for covid vaccine.

1974 swine flu outbreak President Ford rushed a vaccine to the market, low quality control, The vaccine tested poorly on children who, depending on the form of vaccine tested, either developed adverse reactions with high fevers and sore arms or did not mount an immune response at all. Reports emerged that the vaccine appeared to cause Guillain-Barré syndrome in a very small number of cases.

There is a reason vaccine trials take 10 yrs to be approved....not saying an effective Covid vaccine can't be made but given the history the chances they will get right the 1st time are slim to none. Even is the formula is spot on you still have QC issues anytime you ramp up production of anything.

Cutter Labs got it wrong, not because it was rushed, but because they were incompetent. The Salk polio formula was used by other labs to make functional and safe vaccines. The science was not the problem. A change in vaccine development would not have prevented it, rather government being more intrusive with private corporations would have. Finally, 200K kids were vaccinated with it, about 40K developed polio from it. Your statement about "all" is demonstrably false. So, lets apply these numbers (which are horrific) to COVID 19. 200K people get COVID 19, that is 2,000-4,000 deaths (vs 10 deaths and 164 people with varying degrees of paralysis). Now, even if we say only 1/4 of people will ever contract COVID 19, this is still 500-1000 deaths vs 10 deaths at 164 disabilities. We are not even talking about the life altering effects COVID 19 has for some patients yet, but the numbers are still staggeringly in favor of a vaccine.

The big headliner number from the Cutter Labs debacle is the 40,000 that contracted polio from the improperly weakened virus in the vaccine. There is no conceivable way an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer, Moderna) could cause this. There is very little conceivable way even the most egregious errors could case it with a dead viral component vaccine (Astrazeneca). However, even if it could, when this is compared to the idea that everyone should be allowed to contract COVID naturally, it still favors the vaccine. Further, as the death rate for polio was 5-15 percent, the fact that only 10 people died out of those 40K that contracted polio from the vaccine says that even this horrible abortion of justice and science committed by Cutter Labs was still safer than contracting polio.

For 45 million people vaccinated for the 1974 swine flue, 450 (yes, as in four hundred and fifty) developed Guillain-Barre syndrome. So, if we are to use this is an example of the horrors of vaccines and compare it to COVID 19, COVID would have killed 450,000 to 900,000 and resulted in 2.25 million ICU stays. Even if we argue that COVID would only spread to 1/4 of the 45 million that is still 112,500 to 225,000 dead. So, even ignoring the fact that most people end up recovering from Guillain-Barre (and outside of religious contexts I have never heard of someone recovering from death) the numbers are still staggeringly in favor of a vaccine.

There is a reason emergency use authorizations are being considered for COVID vaccines.

I work in a laboratory in a hospital. I do a good bit of specimen collection and interacting with the patients, as well as running the tests and communicating with public health about results. I am by no means an expert on the situation, but I am a professional with 6 years of schooling and this is what I have been seeing in our fairly low populated area.

You follow up on all those patients? Or do you see them get sent home and not see when they get crash intubated in the ED a week later? Or, for the milder cases, do you follow up to see if they have any long term effects, sift through all their health records? There is a reason we normally reject antidotal evidence in medicine and science.

The only value of my personal experience is that I can definitively say this virus is not a hoax and that it does nasty things to people some times. Perhaps, as your experience has yet to show this you believe the official data is a lie.

Did you now that 72 percent of people with polio have no detectable symptoms? Think about how easily personal experience combined with a small sample size could lead to the conclusion that polio is relatively harmless.

You can't compare speed limits to this if Federal Highway dollars weren't tied to speed limits half the states out west still wouldn't have one. Society didn't decided on speed limits and seat belts...most of the states were extorted into passing those laws...really similar to what I seeing now in the media...can't wait to have show my covid vaccine app on my phone before they let me into the store....I fear for Liberty and Freedom in the coming months...

Seat belts, that says enough.

In a democracy (even our constitutional republic) the government represents the people. Therefore every law is decided by society (the people). If you think speed limits and seatbelt laws should be abolished, get a large enough movement going and they will be. Note, I don't think there are enough people who agree with you for that to work, but your argument is that those laws don't have the sanction of the governed. So, yes, society did decided on speed limits and seat belts.

 

[MattB]

You still havn’t answered my question though: if you are vaccinated and your family is vaccinated and safe, what does it matter to you what I do???

There is still debate on whether the vaccine will keep people from getting the virus or keep them from getting sick from the virus.

You ask the theoretical, but I will give you a specific, real world example. Some people with weakened immune systems cannot be vaccinated due to their health condition. We saw an instance in Marin county which has a very % of anti-vaxers that the healthy but unvaccinated were the ones whose activities were restricted by the Health Department when they had outbreaks of measles.

They were allowed their choice which should be their right, but I thought it was the reasonable response to restrict the activities of those who made the choice not to protect themselves and by extension those around them versus those who had no choice in the matter.

My sense is we may see varying degrees of that with COVID.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

There is still debate on whether the vaccine will keep people from getting the virus or keep them from getting sick from the virus.

With that in mind, why should people be so eager to take it???

 

[MattB]

With that in mind, why should people be so eager to take it???

Seriously? Wow. The reason is self-evident based on my comment. The fact that you are asking the question tells me that I would be wasting my time explaining it to you.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

The vaccine producers will be, for the first time ever, exempt from any and all lawsuits for injuries surrounding the vaccination. Just let that sink in.

Couple that with some experts saying those who are overall unhealthy (70% of you lazy turds reading this are over weight and 45% obese) in this country this vaccine isn’t even going to bandaid the issue of the virus. I won’t argue because I’m not the expert, but hey why listen to the dozens of voices being silenced? Surely our government and medical “experts” have never lied or been wrong before...

Go ahead take the vaccine, just don’t claim those who don’t are putting others health at risk when our country is the most unhealthy country of any developed nation in history.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Seriously? Wow. The reason is self-evident based on my comment. The fact that you are asking the question tells me that I would be wasting my time explaining it to you.

Ok so let me get this straight....
-there is no long term data regarding side effects
-it may or may not work....

And you don’t think my question is valid....get a grip bud. Maybe try to apply some critical thinking here, it may harm you and it may or may not work....LETS RUN OUT AND GET IT!!!!!

 

[AKBC]

It is proven now that the vaccines work and are highly effective at keeping people from getting sick. I guess based on all the doubters on here I will probably be able to get the vaccine earlier than I would otherwise.

I like what AKDoc says above. Don't base your decision on information you obtain here or other social media sources!

 

[fatbacks]

This is my prediction for the next year or so based on my dinner table conversations from the past few months where covid has been discussed ad nauseum. Take it with a grain of salt because I am not a expert/doctor (but I am married to one).

Soon front line health care workers will start to get the vaccine which will help the current staffing crisis we're dealing with in Alaska. General public will have the vaccine available if they want it starting mid-March. By summertime a fair amount of people will have either had covid or had the vaccine. By summer, maybe the vaccine will be approved for kids, pregnant women, etc. The virus will lose steam in the summer but still remain very present in certain populations. Next fall there will be a group of people who still lack immunity (aka have not been vaccinated or haven't had the 'rona). The virus will fester in that group of people all next winter. Most people in the aforementioned population who get it will be fine in the end. There is going to be a certain percentage of that group that die and a percentage of previously healthy people who have long term side effects from Covid (see my previous post about being perfectly healthy but now suffer longer term health effects from covid). Some of those will regret not getting vaccinated. Most won't.

Regardless where you stand on the vaccine I think we would agree we are lucky to live in America where good healthcare is so widely available. Most people will not ever see it but there a literally hundreds of thousands of doctors, nurses, med techs, public health officials working their asses off to keep those who are sick alive to see another day. If you know a healthcare worker in one of the harder hit areas, send them a note, send them flowers, buy them a six pack at some point and thank them. The burn out and toll on their families is real.

Lastly, please stop arguing with this thinhorn guy or gal.... I respect their right to not get vaccinated. I am 86% convinced at this point that no matter what anyone types, they're not going to change their mind.

 

[fwafwow]

I like what AKDoc says above. Don't base your decision on information you obtain here or other social media sources!

Ditto - and not only for helping to make a decision about whether to get the vax, but for input on treatment if you should get sick (with Covid or otherwise). I didn't have a good relationship w/ my PCP when I first got sick, so I got the "take Tylenol" routine. I ended up switching to another physician and was able to get a bit more specific and proactive approach.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Soon front line health care workers will start to get the vaccine which will help the current staffing crisis we're dealing with in Alaska. General public will have the vaccine available if they want it starting mid-March. By summertime a fair amount of people will have either had covid or had the vaccine. By summer, maybe the vaccine will be approved for kids, pregnant women, etc. The virus will lose steam in the summer but still remain very present in certain populations.

Lastly, please stop arguing with this thinhorn guy or gal.... I respect their right to not get vaccinated. I am 86% convinced at this point that no matter what anyone types, they're not going to change their mind.

I think this is a pretty reasonable timeline. Idk if it will be approved for kids and pregnant women that fast but I agree that by summer it will start to lose steam due to large numbers of people either contracting it or being vaccinated.
And I’ll definitely be following that last bit of advice!

 

[thinhorn_AK]

This is my prediction for the next year or so based on my dinner table conversations from the past few months where covid has been discussed ad nauseum. Take it with a grain of salt because I am not a expert/doctor (but I am married to one).

Soon front line health care workers will start to get the vaccine which will help the current staffing crisis we're dealing with in Alaska. General public will have the vaccine available if they want it starting mid-March. By summertime a fair amount of people will have either had covid or had the vaccine. By summer, maybe the vaccine will be approved for kids, pregnant women, etc. The virus will lose steam in the summer but still remain very present in certain populations. Next fall there will be a group of people who still lack immunity (aka have not been vaccinated or haven't had the 'rona). The virus will fester in that group of people all next winter. Most people in the aforementioned population who get it will be fine in the end. There is going to be a certain percentage of that group that die and a percentage of previously healthy people who have long term side effects from Covid (see my previous post about being perfectly healthy but now suffer longer term health effects from covid). Some of those will regret not getting vaccinated. Most won't.

Regardless where you stand on the vaccine I think we would agree we are lucky to live in America where good healthcare is so widely available. Most people will not ever see it but there a literally hundreds of thousands of doctors, nurses, med techs, public health officials working their asses off to keep those who are sick alive to see another day. If you know a healthcare worker in one of the harder hit areas, send them a note, send them flowers, buy them a six pack at some point and thank them. The burn out and toll on their families is real.

Lastly, please stop arguing with this thinhorn guy or gal.... I respect their right to not get vaccinated. I am 86% convinced at this point that no matter what anyone types, they're not going to change their mind.

Please don’t reference me. If people want to reply to me, let them.

 

[307]

I love watching people with no actual training, education, or experience "debate" a topic...

I have a doctoral degree in a healthcare field but I'm nowhere near understanding the complexity of this particular issue.

The Dunning Kruger effect is strong. There are many "kings of the mountain" around here, and a couple of actual professionals at least semi-qualified to have a valid opinion (I'm not one of them)...

 

[ElMuercielago]

Definitely not. We just had a newborn and I've researched the garbage they put into those...I imagine the Covid vaccine will be even less thoroughly tested and with more additives. This is coming from a biologist with a health care worker wife.

 

[ElMuercielago]

I love watching people with no actual training, education, or experience "debate" a topic...

I have a doctoral degree in a healthcare field but I'm nowhere near understanding the complexity of this particular issue.

The Dunning Kruger effect is strong. There are many "kings of the mountain" around here, and a couple of actual professionals at least semi-qualified to have a valid opinion (I'm not one of them)...

That's the internet for ya; it has made faux-geniuses of each one of us...especially the dummies.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

That's the internet for ya; it has made faux-geniuses of each one of us...especially the dummies.

And this thread is full of them, just go back and look at all the people flipping out because a few of us actually want to see the effects of a vaccine before we take it. Hilarious.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

Cutter Labs got it wrong, not because it was rushed, but because they were incompetent. The Salk polio formula was used by other labs to make functional and safe vaccines. The science was not the problem. A change in vaccine development would not have prevented it, rather government being more intrusive with private corporations would have. Finally, 200K kids were vaccinated with it, about 40K developed polio from it. Your statement about "all" is demonstrably false. So, lets apply these numbers (which are horrific) to COVID 19. 200K people get COVID 19, that is 2,000-4,000 deaths (vs 10 deaths and 164 people with varying degrees of paralysis). Now, even if we say only 1/4 of people will ever contract COVID 19, this is still 500-1000 deaths vs 10 deaths at 164 disabilities. We are not even talking about the life altering effects COVID 19 has for some patients yet, but the numbers are still staggeringly in favor of a vaccine.

The big headliner number from the Cutter Labs debacle is the 40,000 that contracted polio from the improperly weakened virus in the vaccine. There is no conceivable way an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer, Moderna) could cause this. There is very little conceivable way even the most egregious errors could case it with a dead viral component vaccine (Astrazeneca). However, even if it could, when this is compared to the idea that everyone should be allowed to contract COVID naturally, it still favors the vaccine. Further, as the death rate for polio was 5-15 percent, the fact that only 10 people died out of those 40K that contracted polio from the vaccine says that even this horrible abortion of justice and science committed by Cutter Labs was still safer than contracting polio.

For 45 million people vaccinated for the 1974 swine flue, 450 (yes, as in four hundred and fifty) developed Guillain-Barre syndrome. So, if we are to use this is an example of the horrors of vaccines and compare it to COVID 19, COVID would have killed 450,000 to 900,000 and resulted in 2.25 million ICU stays. Even if we argue that COVID would only spread to 1/4 of the 45 million that is still 112,500 to 225,000 dead. So, even ignoring the fact that most people end up recovering from Guillain-Barre (and outside of religious contexts I have never heard of someone recovering from death) the numbers are still staggeringly in favor of a vaccine.

There is a reason emergency use authorizations are being considered for COVID vaccines.


You follow up on all those patients? Or do you see them get sent home and not see when they get crash intubated in the ED a week later? Or, for the milder cases, do you follow up to see if they have any long term effects, sift through all their health records? There is a reason we normally reject antidotal evidence in medicine and science.

The only value of my personal experience is that I can definitively say this virus is not a hoax and that it does nasty things to people some times. Perhaps, as your experience has yet to show this you believe the official data is a lie.

Did you now that 72 percent of people with polio have no detectable symptoms? Think about how easily personal experience combined with a small sample size could lead to the conclusion that polio is relatively harmless.


Seat belts, that says enough.

In a democracy (even our constitutional republic) the government represents the people. Therefore every law is decided by society (the people). If you think speed limits and seatbelt laws should be abolished, get a large enough movement going and they will be. Note, I don't think there are enough people who agree with you for that to work, but your argument is that those laws don't have the sanction of the governed. So, yes, society did decided on speed limits and seat

Cutter Labs got it wrong, not because it was rushed, but because they were incompetent. The Salk polio formula was used by other labs to make functional and safe vaccines. The science was not the problem. A change in vaccine development would not have prevented it, rather government being more intrusive with private corporations would have. Finally, 200K kids were vaccinated with it, about 40K developed polio from it. Your statement about "all" is demonstrably false. So, lets apply these numbers (which are horrific) to COVID 19. 200K people get COVID 19, that is 2,000-4,000 deaths (vs 10 deaths and 164 people with varying degrees of paralysis). Now, even if we say only 1/4 of people will ever contract COVID 19, this is still 500-1000 deaths vs 10 deaths at 164 disabilities. We are not even talking about the life altering effects COVID 19 has for some patients yet, but the numbers are still staggeringly in favor of a vaccine.

The big headliner number from the Cutter Labs debacle is the 40,000 that contracted polio from the improperly weakened virus in the vaccine. There is no conceivable way an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer, Moderna) could cause this. There is very little conceivable way even the most egregious errors could case it with a dead viral component vaccine (Astrazeneca). However, even if it could, when this is compared to the idea that everyone should be allowed to contract COVID naturally, it still favors the vaccine. Further, as the death rate for polio was 5-15 percent, the fact that only 10 people died out of those 40K that contracted polio from the vaccine says that even this horrible abortion of justice and science committed by Cutter Labs was still safer than contracting polio.

For 45 million people vaccinated for the 1974 swine flue, 450 (yes, as in four hundred and fifty) developed Guillain-Barre syndrome. So, if we are to use this is an example of the horrors of vaccines and compare it to COVID 19, COVID would have killed 450,000 to 900,000 and resulted in 2.25 million ICU stays. Even if we argue that COVID would only spread to 1/4 of the 45 million that is still 112,500 to 225,000 dead. So, even ignoring the fact that most people end up recovering from Guillain-Barre (and outside of religious contexts I have never heard of someone recovering from death) the numbers are still staggeringly in favor of a vaccine.

There is a reason emergency use authorizations are being considered for COVID vaccines.


You follow up on all those patients? Or do you see them get sent home and not see when they get crash intubated in the ED a week later? Or, for the milder cases, do you follow up to see if they have any long term effects, sift through all their health records? There is a reason we normally reject antidotal evidence in medicine and science.

The only value of my personal experience is that I can definitively say this virus is not a hoax and that it does nasty things to people some times. Perhaps, as your experience has yet to show this you believe the official data is a lie.

Did you now that 72 percent of people with polio have no detectable symptoms? Think about how easily personal experience combined with a small sample size could lead to the conclusion that polio is relatively harmless.


Seat belts, that says enough.

In a democracy (even our constitutional republic) the government represents the people. Therefore every law is decided by society (the people). If you think speed limits and seatbelt laws should be abolished, get a large enough movement going and they will be. Note, I don't think there are enough people who agree with you for that to work, but your argument is that those laws don't have the sanction of the governed. So, yes, society did decided on speed limits and seat belts.

I provided the examples above to show what can go wrong with trials. I didn't even bring up the narcolepsy side effects from the Swedish swine flu vaccine from a few years ago.. You can extrapolate the data how you see fit, obviously your comfortable with consequences.

So I take this vaccine and have some side effects whats my action of recourse? Absolutely nothing maybe when I loose my job and my house I might then maybe be able to get Medical card and some public housing?
I am not going to shoot something in my body 2x that the manufacturer has zero liability for. Honestly in some states herion dealers are held more accountable when somebody ODs from their stuff than these drug companies are going to held if somebody's dies from this vaccine.

I grew up in Appalachia I watched these drug companies dump millions of pills in small towns nobody ever heard of so they could line their pockets. Generations of families dead..over a 10 yr period they shipped 20.8 million pain pills to 2 pharmacies in a town of 2900 people and in that 10 yr period nobody at these drug companies asked any questions? Then when all this comes out in a congressional hearing they have to pay a fine that is probably less than .01% of the profits they made in that 10 yr period.
There are many examples where drug companies put profits 1st and everything else last.

I got no issue with folks that wanna get the vaccine. Just don't force me to take it. Its a personal decision everybody needs to make for themselves not forced upon you by Goverment and Big Business.

 

[fbhandler]

That's the internet for ya; it has made faux-geniuses of each one of us...especially the dummies.

No... that’s America for ya today. You gotta be one of the oooh so smart to have a say on what should go in your body or not. Make no mistake, the so called “wanna be kings of the hill” are the guys who think their opinion should be the only one that matters cuz after all... we’re just dummies and therreee so smartttt ...