10mm Ammo would you rather?

LookinforDirt

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I’m voting for Underwood hard cast and it is what I carry in mine. But the problem is 50 rounds isn’t enough. I’d want to shoot no less than 50 through the gun to make sure it cycles that ammo with no malfunctions and also test the accuracy. I shot 20 rounds for accuracy then rapid fired 2 magazines of the Underwood 200gr through my xDM 10mm and called it good. Yes, most will say that isn’t enough testing and I’d agree. I’ve since shot more through it of Underwood 200 and 220. But that was my initial test before carrying it in the woods. My gun has never once jammed firing any brand, bullet weight, bullet type, my own reloads, one handed, sideways, dirty, you name it and has been good to very good accurate with everything. So I’m pretty comfortable with carrying it. I load my own 200 and 220gr rounds for practice. It’s tough on the pocket book but if you are going to carry it for self defense then you need to prove it works.

All that said, I’d go on the trip with the bear spray and what you have and be happy and looking forward to it.
 

DEGdog

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You have a source for this statement?


Eddie
 

eddielasvegas

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Thanks for these DEGdog.

There is a lot to read here, but my cursory review of these articles stresses avoidance, but the real hard numbers are hard to find. Maybe more reading will reveal facts.

Also, what I've read often mentions bears being injured/killed and that is one big reason to use bear spray. These statements tell me the leanings of those writing the articles.

The attached pic was in one of the articles. Not sure what it's supposed to be showing, but does it makes sense to anybody?


Eddie
 

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DEGdog

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Thanks for these DEGdog.

There is a lot to read here, but my cursory review of these articles stresses avoidance, but the real hard numbers are hard to find. Maybe more reading will reveal facts.

Also, what I've read often mentions bears being injured/killed and that is one big reason to use bear spray. These statements tell me the leanings of those writing the articles.

The attached pic was in one of the articles. Not sure what it's supposed to be showing, but does it makes sense to anybody?


Eddie
I think that picture is stressing the importance of having another person standing between yourself and the bear
 

Wrench

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Thanks for these DEGdog.

There is a lot to read here, but my cursory review of these articles stresses avoidance, but the real hard numbers are hard to find. Maybe more reading will reveal facts.

Also, what I've read often mentions bears being injured/killed and that is one big reason to use bear spray. These statements tell me the leanings of those writing the articles.

The attached pic was in one of the articles. Not sure what it's supposed to be showing, but does it makes sense to anybody?


Eddie

That picture says those bois need to spend more time in the woods and learn how to get on target and know the trajectory of their weapon.

This picture is akin to the high point ejecting brass straight up due to the ghetto hold.

Useless.
 

LookinforDirt

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”In Tom Smith’s bear-spray research, just 10 of 72 bear-spray incidents involved charging bears. Most incidents involved curious or non-aggressive bears. In contrast, his gun study examined bear attacks only. Comparing the two studies is like comparing the injury rate for people picking up apples to the injury rate for people picking up live hand grenades.”

 

Billy Goat

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I think a firearm is close to 100% effective when used correctly, however I'd hate to guess how many carrying one can use it effectively. I'd bet it's under 50%, likely less than that.

Spray is easier for most to use.
 

tuffcity

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Thanks for these DEGdog.

There is a lot to read here, but my cursory review of these articles stresses avoidance, but the real hard numbers are hard to find. Maybe more reading will reveal facts.

Also, what I've read often mentions bears being injured/killed and that is one big reason to use bear spray. These statements tell me the leanings of those writing the articles.

The attached pic was in one of the articles. Not sure what it's supposed to be showing, but does it makes sense to anybody?


Eddie
That pic shows that by the time the bear is close enough for the spray to be effective their cans will be empty. ,, and the headline will be "bear spray fails"...
 

eddielasvegas

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I think that picture is stressing the importance of having another person standing between yourself and the bear
Exactly and that's durn funny.

That's not a pic I would have included in an article of this type, but I'm also a dumb IT propeller head who knows little of how to write. OTOH, if it's zero's and one's, I got a chance to understand it. :eek:


Eddie
 

BRTreedogs

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I looked for awhile and couldn't find it.
Maybe I heard it on a podcast.

But I remember hearing/reading that the effectiveness of spray is reduced quite substantially if the bear had been sprayed before.
Like 99% to 75 to 50% on the 3rd time.

But at this point I cannot back up my claim.

Personally I'm a gun guy.
 

Beendare

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”In Tom Smith’s bear-spray research, just 10 of 72 bear-spray incidents involved charging bears. Most incidents involved curious or non-aggressive bears. In contrast, his gun study examined bear attacks only. Comparing the two studies is like comparing the injury rate for people picking up apples to the injury rate for people picking up live hand grenades.”

Yes sir, ^ one has to read between the lines on these studies.
The dirty little secret with bears and gun encounters is- most are successful and never get reported.

DEG, are you a hunter? Your BYU link recommends;
  • hike in groups
  • avoid areas of poor visibility
  • make noise as appropriate
  • avoid startling mothers with cubs
  • be more cautious in brown bear country
Dude, we are hunting, not on a stroll with the fam.


 
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GSPHUNTER

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Dump GF, buy two boxes of what ever you want. Then buy five new guns and lots more ammo. I don't see the problem.
 

eddielasvegas

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Yes sir, ^ one has to read between the lines on these studies.
The dirty little secret with bears and gun encounters is- most are successful and never get reported.

DEG, are you a hunter? Your BYU link recommends;
  • hike in groups
  • avoid areas of poor visibility
  • make noise as appropriate
  • avoid startling mothers with cubs
  • be more cautious in brown bear country
Dude, we are hunting, not on a stroll with the fam.


In my cursory review, all I could think of is this reads like a "wholistic" approach tp bear defense that requires
all of us to perform our "due diligence" to keep the bears safe and then if that all fails, stand in a circle and starting singing Kumbaya."

And in the final attempt to save your azz, be sure and call in the bear counselors. I know they can fix it.



Eddie
 

DEGdog

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Yes sir, ^ one has to read between the lines on these studies.
The dirty little secret with bears and gun encounters is- most are successful and never get reported.

DEG, are you a hunter? Your BYU link recommends;
  • hike in groups
  • avoid areas of poor visibility
  • make noise as appropriate
  • avoid startling mothers with cubs
  • be more cautious in brown bear country
Dude, we are hunting, not on a stroll with the fam.


I was asked to provide the basis for my comment that experts recommend bear spray over a sidearm. I did. I didn’t write the frickin papers and haven’t seen anyone produce a peer-reviewed paper to the contrary. Yes I hunt and if I was archery hunting in grizz country I’d probably carry both spray and a sidearm (probably one of those 10mm that kill bears like Thor’s hammer).
 

Beendare

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I was asked to provide the basis for my comment that experts recommend bear spray over a sidearm. I did. I didn’t write the frickin papers and haven’t seen anyone produce a peer-reviewed paper to the contrary. Yes I hunt and if I was archery hunting in grizz country I’d probably carry both spray and a sidearm (probably one of those 10mm that kill bears like Thor’s hammer).
Gotcha.

I’ve lived long enough to realize that when reading News, Studies, Books, etc- Its Important to consider the source. This pretty much goes for everything now And if its political, look at the motivations and follow the money.

So much junk research. I now read the studies with an eye towards where the funding came from or who is responsible for the study.

Examples: study sponsored by ranchers is going to show bears and wolves killing livestock. On the other side of the coin would be any study funded by the group Defenders of wildlife, Humane Society or PETA one can just skip the mumbo jumbo and jump to their conclusion that wolves are more important to the environment than humans. The bear studies are the same and always conclude- “ Dont shoot them” and in the vast majority of cases, we don’t have to.

Many of our wildlife professionals have a bias towards Bears and wolves- its their chosen profession afterall. They do correctly point out that many of these lethal encounters can be avoided Like the big bull we were after in Mt a couple years ago out of Livingston. We didnt go get in closer and call as there was a big sow Grizz with cubs 1/4 mile away downwind.

I have my own biases. I think human life is more important than a bear- especially my life. If I can stop a brown bear on Kodiak at close range without lethal force at close range, then I will and I have.

Its rarely mentioned that a firearm CAN be a non lethal solution. Ive seen a bear that was thinking about it scared off by a warning shot and then there is the Eichler float vid- it works.

Personally, I worry more about the G bears where we hunt near Yellowstone that are habituated to humans ( another topic)

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ChrisCarson

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May 19, 2021
Messages
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I use 200 hardcast in my G20. Read about 220's tumbling but not sure. All the folks about are right about shooting what you feel comfortable with. I made sure to put 20 rounds of hard cast through before I felt ok to rely on them. Have fun!
 
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